Not agreeing doesn’t make you hateful By JIM SHINN
Friday, July 25, 2008 10:06 PM PDT
My wife and I agree to disagree on many topics like finances, parenting, the in-laws, toothpaste tubes and even dining out. Can you imagine, “She doesn’t like Chinese food!” But do I hate her? No. Am I bothered? Yes.
Kobe Bryant of the Lakers really upset me when he cheated on his wife and in the playoffs, after losing one of the games, he suggested “drinking a bunch of shots.” Sorry, Laker fans, but Kobe bugs me. Do I hate the Lakers? No, I like Phil Jackson, Derek Fisher, Luke Walton and many others. I will root for the Lakers at times, but while they have Kobe, I don’t want them to get another championship.
So what does this have to do with Proposition 8, the California Marriage Protection Act? While you may not agree with something or don’t like it, it doesn’t make you hateful. I am a member of different professional organizations, which support policies I disagree with. I am a clinical social worker and a member of the National Association of Social Workers. In the recent professional journal NASW’s California News, Proposition 8 was referred to as “hateful.” That bothered me, hearing that from a professional organization, but I guess you could expect it from a group that also supports abortion.
The hateful speech, we have and will hear, is all another attempt to marginalize Christians and other nice folks who want to stand up against the “tyranny of the minority.” There is a cultural war going on, with a very powerful elite group that really wants to change values many in the U.S. and the world hold dear. Did you know that Vladimir Lenin of the now fallen Soviet Union (Who I used to think made sense!) wanted to abolish the family? He wanted to free women for the industrial revolution. Communism is back-pedaling today in most countries, with the exception of China, where we see abortion and persecution of Christians at an all-time high.
The research on hate crimes (I taught minority group relations at San Diego State University for many years), still has hate crimes against Jewish folks as the highest group targeted. In research about marriage, in Europe, in Denmark and Belgium, where same-sex marriage has been legal for years, statistics show that a very low percentage even get marriage (less than 10 percent), and those that do, three out of four get divorced. So NASW wants me to support something the GLBT community doesn’t even use, and when they do get marriage, it doesn’t work! This thinking is kinda like encouraging me to buy a gas-guzzling vehicle that has a reputation for being a lemon!!! And if I reject the unreasonable, I am being hateful.
Not everyone who opposes same-sex marriage is Christian. I can’t speak for all (like the minority at NASW do), but Christians and social workers are not hateful. Over the years, I have had many friends (and still do), who are gay, and I have treated them with kindness and dignity. For gay folks I have counseled, although we have different beliefs, they have come away feeling better, and seeing me as a helpful professional. I see no value at all in substance abuse, but the addicted I counsel well, are loved and helped in spite of our differences.
In Matthew 19:19, it states “love your neighbor.” Same-sex marriage, according to statistics, leads to divorce. Trying to stop someone from injury is an act of love not hate. And trying to label me to manipulate society is something that was popular in Nazi Germany. By the way, did I tell you I was part Jewish?
It's great to see such great thinkers in the Valley! "
histarfish wrote on Jul 31, 2008 2:32 PM:
" Wesley, I have a relative who disowned another relative because they were gay and there christian beliefs were like yours. The ironic thing is, my relative now has a gay child, the child has not told family that they are in fact gay. I believe out of fear of rejection and maybe being disowned by there own mother. Sad. Can you imagine "choosing" a lifestyle that would make you hated by so many and possibly taking the chance "burning in hell" and being disowned by loved ones. I don't know if it is choice or not but I think either way it would be a hard choice to make. "
Prov3 wrote on Jul 31, 2008 2:22 PM:
" I agree with you, histarfish. "
histarfish wrote on Jul 31, 2008 1:33 PM:
" There are areas in the surrounding cities that I live near that Law inforcement will not go into alone, they wait for support before entering certain areas because it is too dangerous. It is not because gays live there but gangs and drug addicts and dealers.
I would much rather have a gay couple living next door to me than gang members and drug dealers any day! "
phobos wrote on Jul 31, 2008 12:23 PM:
" drussel, it's too bad people with your high intelligence and clear thinking can't be elected president. "
drussel wrote on Jul 31, 2008 9:25 AM:
" With all due respect, Wesley, I have to vigorously disagree with your assertion that homosexuality is an attack on Christianity. That couldn't be further from the truth, IMO. Take a hard look around and you'll see that many gays/lesbians/transgenders are of a Christian faith and background, In fact, there are quite a few clergy people in the world today that are gay/lesbian.
As for your inner-city concerns, I agree that the issues facing many major metropolitan areas are a direct result of a criminal element. However, I know of no community that is so "vile" or "debased" that the police won't enter to enforce the law. That's just plain ludicrous. As a matter of fact, a lot of those inner-city issues are being dealt with in a positive fashion. The communities are being renewed and revitalized daily. Money and politics are the sole obstacles. But they are changing.
I don't think that those inner-city issues can be attributed to the homosexual lifestyle. A great example of the peaceful, loving nature of a homosexual community is the Castro District in San Francisco. And the people of the Castro can, and do, stand up to evil when it shows it's face. "
drussel wrote on Jul 31, 2008 9:05 AM:
" Wesley-First let me say that I appreciate the concern you show for your children and their well-being. As a father, I have to say that's very admirable of you. But as a father I also realized early on in my child's development that I could not protect her from all of society's ills, no matter how hard I tried. Eventually, your prodigy will come to realize through actual contact or from the media that alternate lifestyles do, in fact, exist. Whether those lifestyles are a "choice", or a product of genetics, their existence is a fact in our culture today. I certainly can't tell you how to parent, but if it were me, and my child was in her formative years, I would prefer to explain the lifestyle to her in an unbiased way, rather than have it done for me by the press or media, or by any other way that is available to the children of this century.
Wesley, IMO nobody is forcing a homosexual lifestyle on you or your children. Here's what they are asking for in a nutshell- they want ALL of the civil and human rights you and I currently enjoy-and that includes marriage.
Good points, histarfish. "
phobos wrote on Jul 31, 2008 12:01 AM:
" I think believing in an eternal Hell is far more evil than homosexual marriage. How do loving Christians justify such hate and torture? "
wesley wrote on Jul 30, 2008 3:21 PM:
" Homosexual marriage is an attack on Christianity and morality. Homosexual marriage is part of a much wider agenda to force an unnatural and perverse lifestyle on me and my children. If you accept homosexual marriage then you are asking for much worse. Homosexuals generally are good people that choose to live a lifestyle that is deviant from the natural order. If one cant stand up to immoral behavior that is relatively benign then one cant possible stand up to real evil. If you want to take a look at where this country is headed just take a look at any inner-city in most of the major metropolises in this country. If you want to live a community so vile and debased that not even the police dare venture in, then by all means keep supporting moral depravity. "
phobos wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:38 PM:
" I think all marriage should be abolished; it just leads to divorce. "
isurdoc wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:12 PM:
" Jim Shinn lives in El Centro
Well who would a thunk it, sanity does exists and I see that lots of others give hope that California is not lost.
Lost to the self indulgent Narcissistic Personality Disorders found in many of the one agenda groups in this once great state.
If California was a citizen living in Oregon the government would have recommended assisted suicide as a possible solution to cure its problems caused by an out of control state government.
I am not against Gays as long as they don't pull this in your face look at me crap like in San Fransicko. "
histarfish wrote on Jul 29, 2008 1:35 PM:
" Drussel, I think some people might worry about there children being around children of gay couples. They would have to explain to there children why little suzy or tommy has two moms or two dads. Then the parents would be forced to explain homosexuality to there children. Then they would either need to tell there children that there best friends parents are sinners and "bad people". Or they would have to be accepting of gay marriage and gay relationships in general.
I also think that Gay marriage will lead to a high divorce rate. Which is going to cause more cost to taxpayers for court costs and tie up the legal system even more.
I don't feel this way just a thought on the subject. "
simplelogic wrote on Jul 29, 2008 9:56 AM:
" Wesley wrote: "The purpose of marriage is to produce and raise offspring so that society can survive." My question is this: What if A married, hetero, couple is unable to have children due to a genetic abnormality that is irreversible, are they sinners? "
drussel wrote on Jul 29, 2008 9:34 AM:
" And, if I may ask a question of you Wesley, and anyone else monitoring this discussion...
I understand how offensive gay marriage is to you and a large number of people like you, but what I'd like to know, and gain a better understanding of, is just how gay marriage will impact you in your daily, personal life? Or, what kind of an impact will it have on your family life? And what, specifically, is it that you find offensive about gay marriage? (Please leave the procreation/reproduction aspect out of this, OK?)
Personally, it won't have any affect on my personal life or on my family life, or on my lifestyle. It obviously offends the sensitivities of some, but in reality, and from a personal standpoint, it has absolutely no economic, societal, religious, or governmental impact on me whatsoever.
So, if anyone wants to look deep inside him-or herself and answer the questions, I'd be very appreciative... "
drussel wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:59 AM:
" Wesley- First let me say that I recognize and appreciate your angst over the sense of perceived moralistic decay in today's world. As you know, times change and people change along with the times. And their moral viewpoints can change over time-some becoming relaxed, some becoming more conservative. There is nothing you or I can do about those individual changes. Well, one or two things perhaps...make laws that reflect your (generally speaking) moral code of ethics over mine, or elect public officials whose moral compass swings in the same direction as yours, generally speaking.
But on the issue of gay marriage, it comes down to a choice, in my view. A choice between the continued imposition of morality and denial of choice by a Christian majority upon a minority segment of our social order, coupled together with the continued denial of basic civil and human rights, or the allowance by a generous and compassionate voting public for a minority segment of our culture to marry, should they choose, and feel like a complete and total part of that culture. I think it's that simple. Either we are a compassionate and understanding civilization, or we are not. Personally, I hope we are. "
Did I say drussel you are the sole person responsible for divorce? No I didn't. I stated people like you. In other words, PEOPLE with permissive attitudes towards sexual immorality. If I thought about it hard enough I'm sure I could find blame for myself as well. Our society in general has become so desensitized to sexual immorality that far worse gradients of depravity is possible. We have gotten to a point of accepting homosexual marriage because we accepted divorce. Then we accepted co-habitation, abortion, teenage pormiscuity and teenage pregnancy. It's not going to stop with Homsexual marriage. "
wesley wrote on Jul 28, 2008 5:51 PM:
" Well, you seem to dwell on the fact gays cannot reproduce. But I think that's all a red herring on your part because you really have no other argument save the Bible.
As I have repeatedly told you, the fact that gays can't reproduce is scientific. It is biologically impossible. The Bible has nothing to do with it. You are not paying attention. "
wesley wrote on Jul 28, 2008 5:44 PM:
" LOL, If God doesn't exist then you do not have any rights. Without God, you have privledeges given to you by the state. If the state gives you priveledges then the state can take them away. God given rights can not be taken taken from you. I loved the way you defined human rights by saying that they are an assortment of rights. You mights as well of said human rights are human rights. Here, you missed this part of the DOI. When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them....
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator....Notice the words God and Creator. Funny how you overlooked that isn't it. "
drussel wrote on Jul 28, 2008 4:46 PM:
" Is that a fact, mojave? Ahhh, you're just kidding, huh? Yeah, I thought maybe that was the case...No? So share with us...how do they decide? Coin toss? Rock, paper, scissor? Really...how??
Wouldn't it be easier to change just one law instead of 10 or more? "
histarfish wrote on Jul 28, 2008 4:27 PM:
" I don't see why someone who is an athiest would want to be married to begin with. It is basically a vow to God to be faithfull to your partner. None religious marriages are just legal contracts. So why not just go the other way and get the laws changed when it comes to taxes, hospital visitations, parental rights, inheritance rights and so forth. "
mojave wrote on Jul 28, 2008 4:22 PM:
" Have you ever noticed that in every gay or lesbian relationship, one partner plays, dresses, and assumes the male role, and the other plays, dresses, and assumes the female role?
Male and Female, what a novel idea! "
drussel wrote on Jul 28, 2008 4:14 PM:
" From Wikipedia- "Human rights refers to the "basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled."[1] Examples of rights and freedoms which are often thought of as human rights include civil and political rights, such as the right to life and liberty, freedom of expression, and equality before the law; and social, cultural and economic rights, including the right to participate in culture, the right to food, the right to work, and the right to education."
Wesley, the last time I looked, marriage was a basic human right, one that all human beings currently enjoy, and one that gay/lesbian/transgenders are currently precluded from enjoying. "
drussel wrote on Jul 28, 2008 4:08 PM:
" Wesley- Assuming for the moment God doesn't exist, then you tell me. The Constitution? Ahhh, I know...The Declaration of Independence? You know the line..."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Notice it does not say "God"?
Well, you seem to dwell on the fact gays cannot reproduce. But I think that's all a red herring on your part because you really have no other argument save the Bible.
Why would a gay/lesbian person want to marry me or you?? I'm straight. How 'bout you, eh???
And do gays enjoy the same rights as married, heterosexual couples. No, they don't. On an individual basis, yes the gay population has equal rights...except for the right to marry. If you do a little research into the matter you'll see that gay couples involved in "civil unions" are not entitled to those things we hetero's take for granted...property rights, hospital visitation rights, health benefits, etc. If you were to strip these rights away from hetero couples, the hue and cry would be deafening.
" Homosexuals have all the rights that everyone else in this country does. What homosexuals want is to have special rights based on their sexual choice rather than anything immutable like skin color. Homosexuals can get married, to a person of the opposite sex. The fact is homosexuals want a special right, above and beyond those of heterosexuals. Living a homosexual lifestyle is a choice. Framing this issue as a civil right is demeaning to the civil rights movement. "
wesley wrote on Jul 28, 2008 3:21 PM:
" If not from God, where do human rights come from drussel? "
wesley wrote on Jul 28, 2008 3:18 PM:
" The reason drussel, that heteros have such a divorce rate is because of people like you. The same kind of attitude towards morality that proponents of gay marriage have is the same one that has de-stigmatized divorce. It's the same attitude that encourages teen pregnancy. To proponents of gay marriage the new morality is having no morality. "
wesley wrote on Jul 28, 2008 3:08 PM:
" Drussel one of your chief problems is that you like to imagine people stating things that they never have. I never stated nor implied that the entire state of California would be become gay. Try responding to what I have actually written instead of what you have fanitzised that I have written. "
drussel wrote on Jul 28, 2008 10:28 AM:
" A brief comment on Wesley's statement regarding homosexuals and procreation. I've never been known to be brief, but I'll try...
Not to sound condescending, but so what if gays/lesbians can't procreate in an accepted fashion? There are options available-artificial insemination is one, adoption is another. With over 100,000 children in foster care (Adoption Network), it would appear as though a portion of the heterosexual community still hasn't gotten it quite right when it comes to procreating. They pop out a kid, then give it away, or abort the fetus early on. That's in conformance with the teachings of the Church, yes?
What I draw from your comments is an innate fear that somehow, if gay marriage is allowed, the entire populace of CA and the world will suddenly become gay, and no more children will be brought into the world in the 'normal' way. That's preposterous, of course, because even today more and more women are opting for single parenthood, and getting pregnant through artificial means. If single women can do it, why can't a gay/lesbian person or married couple do it?
Furthermore, Wesley, I think the one man/one woman model is less than an ideal example. Note the divorce rate. "
durango wrote on Jul 28, 2008 10:14 AM:
" Drussel--great post! "
drussel wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:45 AM:
" coach richey- Yes, we can agree to disagree. Having said that, I don't consider myself a "Christian", nor do I attend church. Furthermore, for what it's worth, I don't believe in God. I have my beliefs, and they are not based on Christian tenets nor the teachings of the Bible. Biblical morality has it's good teachings, and very bad teachings. And if all Christian's were to strictly follow the morals taught by the Bible, stoning would occur on a daily basis. Instead, Christian's, generally speaking, cherry pick which Biblical laws to enforce, and which to ignore.
In this case, and speaking as a happily married, heterosexual, I believe it's a fundamental matter of human rights. In my opinion, in disallowing marriage by a minority segment of our society, we further relegate them into second class citizenship. In my view, that's wrong, and not what our society is all about. As a society, I feel that we believe in fairness and equality. We're not offering that here. And, yes, the gay community can get angry and vocal over this subject. But wouldn't you do and feel the same if not afforded the opportunity to be an equal member of society? "
abelito wrote on Jul 28, 2008 7:49 AM:
" As seen time and time again, those that have most vociferously opposed homosexuality have eventually been found to have been secretly practicing that very lifestyle. HMMMM???? "
yaallrhaters wrote on Jul 28, 2008 6:52 AM:
" Hate the sin, not the sinners. A sin in a marriage will not work out, especially if it is a sin to start with. "
wesley wrote on Jul 28, 2008 3:31 AM:
" If there existed a gauge that displayed the level of moral rot in a society, I believe the embrace of homosexuality would be the redline point on that gauge, a signal that the society has essentially reached a fatal level of decadence. "
wesley wrote on Jul 28, 2008 3:29 AM:
" Coach what does the fact that homosexuality goes against the natural order have to do with Christianity. Homosexuals can't reproduce biological children. This is a scientific fact. The purpose of marriage is to produce and raise offspring so that society can survive. Homosexuality like many heterosexual vices contribute to the breakdown of society. The best model for marriage is one man and one woman. "
coach richey wrote on Jul 26, 2008 10:48 PM:
" wesley and drussel: Your comments are hilarious. Jumping to defend your fellow clone is soooo Christian of you! As far as drussel goes, if you feel my comment was mean-spirited, you've obviously never met me. Bet you're the type that runs to the church for cover when you offend someone, huh? When you state, "How very un-Christian...", in your attempt to sound intellectual-you actually came off a little gay. The fact of the entire matter is this: None of us can "prove" anything that Mr. Shinn wrote about. So we can agree to disagree, right? "
rlsciaky wrote on Jul 26, 2008 10:48 PM:
" I like Kobe. Waaaaa. I have plenty of gay friends, and i'd do for them just as i'd do for any other friend. What was the point of your editorial, anyway? "
wesley wrote on Jul 26, 2008 8:19 PM:
" Well whatever. The fact is I know right from wrong. My sense of morality does not depend on what most people say or what polls say. My morality depends on what is right. I support moral behaviour of which homosexuality is not one. From what I've read your morality depends on what others think and what the polls say. I guess when statutory rape is no longer considered rape according to 50 percent of those polled, then I guess you'll profess no opposition to having sex with minors. "
beckers wrote on Jul 26, 2008 8:11 PM:
" The question of the hour is who is really being hateful? Why is is that homosexuals need to get married? What does it prove or secure for them? Why is is hateful to define an institution by it's original intent? Words mean things, so when you muddy the definition, anything goes. Most people are against homosexual marriage because without limits the word marriage will come to mean any combination of number, species or objects. Biblical morality has provided some of the best safeguards against exploitation and oppression of women and children. What will you replace it with, and will it be as effective when the bottom line is not Love your neighbor as yourself, but whatever I damn well want I should have regardless of who or what it might hurt. The homosexual lifestyle does not lend itself well to the demands of a family, as children need both a mother and a father for proper emotional development. There is no real "need" for homosexuals to marry other than, that they want to and will vilify anyone who disagrees. Now how loving does that sound? "
abelito wrote on Jul 26, 2008 5:31 PM:
" Regarding Mr. Shinns comments about ill treatment of Jews, not that I'm for it, but there's an interesting article today in the NYT regarding the aftermath of those immigration raids in that Iowa meat packing company. Turns out it's a "Kosher" meat plant it is run by Jews, the foremen are Jews, and the horror stories regarding the treatment they were dishing out, i.e. child labor and other labor law violations as told, not only by the victims but,by undercover informants as well, such as, a RABBI, of all people, appearantly not treating others as they themselves do not like to be treated, or as others have treated them in the past, either. Question is: Will they be "ANSWERING TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY," any time soon? "
drussel wrote on Jul 26, 2008 5:05 PM:
" Wesley- 'Chest'-thumping, not Bible... "
abelito wrote on Jul 26, 2008 5:03 PM:
" nice article in today's(7/26) National News section regarding shady "cristian" televangelists. "
wesley wrote on Jul 26, 2008 4:34 PM:
" Associating me with Bible thumping and holy rolling is a laugh riot. What's even funnier is the irony. "
abelito wrote on Jul 26, 2008 4:30 PM:
" To each, his/her's/it's own. "
drussel wrote on Jul 26, 2008 3:28 PM:
" Wesley- Leave your religious, chest-thumping indignation for opinions that differ from yours on the sidelines, will you? Try and have a civil, open-minded discussion about the topic of gay marriage without going all holy-roller on us. We all know gays/lesbians/transgenders cannot reproduce. This is by far your most predictable, and only reliable argument. Beyond this, you have nothing except your 'own' set of morals. And that's fine..it's just that the moral compass of this nation is changing. No longer is gay marriage considered terrible. Nearly 50 percent of those polled in a recent national poll recently found gay relationships perfectly acceptable.
So, Wesley, maybe you should re-think your morality and join with those of us who have no issue with gay marriage. Who knows, maybe gay couples will show us hetero's how to do it correctly, and reverse the divorce ratings amongst married couples.
It's not considered deviant any longer, Wesley, except maybe by the extremists in the Christian community. Heck, there are now a number of churches that accept gay and lesbian members, as well as welcome them to marry in their church.
So please, Wesley, enough name calling. I know you're passionate about this subject, but please...
Civil discourse breathing it's last... "
wesley wrote on Jul 26, 2008 3:10 PM:
" Well, well, if it isn't another non judgemental, judgemental liberal. Bible beating freaks, Ms Hearst? Can you say hypocrite? Homosexuality is a violation of natural law not just God's law. Two gays can not reproduce thru homosexual intercourse, therefore it is abnormal and deviant. It's simply amazing that people like you do not know this. "
indigo wrote on Jul 26, 2008 3:04 PM:
" Jim Shinn has an excellent point about this "name calling" practice used by certain groups. I have my morals and my beliefs and I do not HATE anyone because of them. I am following my moral authority to the best of my ability. My human ability to discern is not infallible and so I rely on the Bible as my guide. "
Ms. PattyHearst wrote on Jul 26, 2008 1:39 PM:
" O great all we need is the self-righteous Bible beating freaks to say gay marriage is wrong. You're nobody to judge. And if two people love each other, no matter what their preference SO WHAT! LET IT BE! Bible thumpers! "
wesley wrote on Jul 26, 2008 1:32 PM:
" We don't need statistics when we have reality and facts. Homosexuality is a perverted and deviant lifstyle. The one man, one woman model for marriage and child rearing has been around for so long because it is the most positive and successful model for perpetuating a healthy society. "
jolo wrote on Jul 26, 2008 12:42 PM:
" drussel- glad you bit off on my goat, now stay out of youths minds and respect individuals and mothers when they ask you to back off. Listen to others and be nice or the moral majority will encircle your blog world.
I am leaving on two weeks vacation now and I must apologize to you and all for some of my languge, referances and intent, I wish you the best, untill we meet again in the ivpress blog, Jolo "
drussel wrote on Jul 26, 2008 12:31 PM:
" Simplelogic-Uh, oh...now you've done it! You've offended jolo's sensitivities, and now you'll be stalked and harangued for that indiscretion...On the other hand, Simple, let's join together and write that column. It'd be great! We can dedicate it to jolo, and all of the other God-fearing, Christian extremists out in the world...
I respect Jim's opinions. And like he says in his letter, we can respectfully agree to disagree. The key word is 'respectfully'. There are those that have yet to grasp that concept.
Thanks, Simplelogic, for your kind words in the other blog. I truly appreciate that...and it won't be forgotten.
Sorry, Jim. My comments really don't belong in here...but I had no other place to put them. Jolo may have a suggestion for me, though.
Civil discourse is not quite dead, but it's on a respirator...
xoxoxo, jolo... "
simplelogic wrote on Jul 26, 2008 12:05 PM:
" WOW..here we go again! The gibberish being written now is rediculous. Apparently I now hate children and hope for a society without them. Call the National Inquirer! Print It! Seriousely Jolo? I would love to here how that manifested in your mind. "
jolo wrote on Jul 26, 2008 11:55 AM:
" drussel and simplelogic are like minded here. Good article Jim Shinn. Perhaps one day this paper will have a colum written by drussel and simplelogic to assist in sins of the spirit and sins of the flesh or highlight the benefits of a society that doesnt value a childs life by hetero procreation and the associated family values from recognizing marriage as the sacred event in creating a houshold to raise and nurture our most valued children. "
simplelogic wrote on Jul 26, 2008 11:22 AM:
" karlairene...You think Shinn has a point? What... the fact that he is trying to mask his underlying dislike, I won't use hatred due to its strength, for homosexuals by quoting some statistic from Europe when, in fact, religion is driving Shinn's "down with gay marriage" mobile. What does it matter if a gay couple wants to get married? Give them a chance! When the time comes and they do decide to get a divorce, oh well, no skin off my back. Here's something Shinn conveniently left out: How many Hetero divorces involve children? It's a fact that 50% of hetero marriages, see druss's comment, end in divorce and I'm willing to bet that a significant amount of those involve children(I'll be back with the exact figure). Now somebody is affected! How many gay marriages, do you think, are going to invovle children? And you want to talk about the disintegration of families as a result of gay marriage. C'mon! "
karlairene wrote on Jul 26, 2008 8:07 AM:
" J. Shinn has a point about the hateful thing, proponents of homosexual marriage would have all of us who disagree with it labeled as hateful, cruel people. And people don't want 2 be associated with those adjectives so those who haven't yet formulated an opinion tend 2 side with the proponents. But as a thinker I encourage everyone 2 research for themselves and think about whether homosexual marriage would benefit families or further disinegrate them. "
jolo wrote on Jul 26, 2008 7:10 AM:
" drussel - The ink you paint with has a definite recognizable flair, melancholy and malice can not be coverd up with vocabulary and false intent.
I have witnessed your blog expertise, abuse and improper contact. You are false, worldly twisted and definitely not part of my church family. You are a weirdo. "
drussel wrote on Jul 26, 2008 6:48 AM:
" Awww, jolo, did I mess up your day already? Sorry, sweetie. xxooxx "
jolo wrote on Jul 26, 2008 6:40 AM:
" drussel, keep your sexuality to yourself and stay out of our youths heads. "
drussel wrote on Jul 26, 2008 6:29 AM:
" With all due respect to my dear friend, Jim, I must vigorously disagree with him on this matter. European statistics aside, there are no data here in the U.S. to suggest that the marriage failure rate would equal that of our European friends. We haven't allowed the gay/lesbian/transgender (I leave bi-sexuals out of the picture because they can marry legally) community the opportunity to prove the heterosexual/Christian community right or wrong on the marriage failure issue. How about we do that first, and allow them the same rights and pleasures that the heterosexual world enjoys, and to sink or swim of their own accord.
On the other hand, heterosexual marriages have a failure rate of approximately 50 percent. So, using Jim's logic here, because of the dismal breakdown of heterosexual marriages, one man/one woman, all future marriages of this type will be banned immediately, and only co-habitation unions will be allowed. There...that's fair. Now we'll all be on an equal footing with one another.
coach richey- How very un-Christian of you...and mean spirited to boot. "
wesley wrote on Jul 26, 2008 2:59 AM:
" Hey coach thanks for proving Jim's point. "
wesley wrote on Jul 26, 2008 2:57 AM:
" This thread ought to see a hundred posts, heh, heh. "
coach richey wrote on Jul 26, 2008 12:58 AM:
" Alright Shinn, we get it! You're a Christian and know the only true way to salvation. We're damned to hell, and you are a rightous saint. Maybe, just maybe, you should consider the fact that some of us "other" Christians believe in living life in a Christian way, and not running our mouths (or keyboards) with the same tired message. If you feel this hateful, you're simply immature. Try praying for discernment before you peck out your next sermon. "
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phobos wrote on Jul 31, 2008 9:20 PM:
It's great to see such great thinkers in the Valley! "